SOMMS Digest - 10 Dec 1998 to 11 Dec 1998 [ Message/RFC822 25KB. ] [ Unable to print this part. ] There are 15 messages totalling 615 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. production(NEW OPINION) (9) 2. Superwellknown 3. Buried drums 4. Buried production 5. fluttergirl: favorite SG solo? 6. Pleases remove me from the list, thank you 7. Anarchy TV To UNSUBSCRIBE from SOMMS, send email to LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU with the following in the body of your message: SIGNOFF SOMMS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 02:28:14 -0500 From: jenny grover Subject: production(NEW OPINION) jimi wrote: > you never in a > thousand years would have said that if you hadn't read it in a ton of album > reviews. Personally, I avoid album reviews. I avoid most music press anymore. If I read about a band I like, chances are great that I already have the album and have already formed my own opinions about it. If I haven't I sure don't let some hack influence me. > you see, (most)album critics are chosen because they > have such keen ears for audio. Bullshit. Most album reviewers don't know squat except trivia and how to abuse verbage. > you would never have bothered contrasting the > production of SG's last 3 albums even if you do have keen ears. reviewers > have to look out for that kind of shit and I just doubt you really do. I don't have to, but I like to. Yes, I would certainly have "bothered" because the music interests me, and how it is recorded interests me. Production interests me. It always has. It is hardly something I would overlook. The sound is as it is because of the way it was recorded and produced. > by the > way, Master P. sucks, and I'm not just whistlin dixie about rap(i think busta > rhymes is the man, ICP are too) What does this have to do with anything in this post? And more importantly, what does it have to do with Soundgarden? Don't talk to me about "lame" threads. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:21:55 -0500 From: Geoff Kleemola Subject: Re: production(NEW OPINION) I've never really read much about the production of SG's albums either, though it would be interesting. It would be cool to know more about the process, especially of DOTU, since it was self-produced. Besides this, I have a few things to say. First of all, I don't think there is any such thing as "over-production". I don't know what that is. If people are going to continue using this term, I hope someone will define it. What constitutes over-production, and how is it achieved? I am by noe means any kind of expert on the subject, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong. To me, there is good production and bad production. It is not a matter of amount. If you're talking about some kind of magical process that goes on, and that can go on to long and ruin a record, I think you are dreaming. It all comes down to the sound that is captured and played back on your cd player. This sound has a great deal to do with acoustics. Some producers do it well, and others not so well. On a related note, I wasn't sure, Bill what your point was about Led Zeppelin, but in case anybody is informed any other way, Jimmy Page was/is a studio genius. He worked almost exclusively in the studio for many years before Led Zep. Besides the music, the production of almost any LZ album is amazing. Compare it to any other band of the era, (or any era for that matter) besides those he worked on, and there will be no comparison. Geoff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:13:31 PST From: rachel reisman Subject: Superwellknown Hey guys....these are just some minor corrections...and no, im not trying to be snotty...just trying to clear up any confusion....:) <<>>> Actually, the Spin cover feature with our boys is from July 1996...not summer 95...I think the cover says...SOUNDGARDEN: Superwellknown. Rachel* (IWIWSS, Mrs.Spack) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:18:22 -0500 From: MICHAEL APPLE Subject: Re: production(NEW OPINION) Date sent: 10-DEC-1998 11:14:40 The idea that the average listener can't comment on the production on an album because they aren't trained as an audio technician is patently ridiculous. That's like saying a person can't enjoy a song's arrangement, simply because they don't have a degree in music theory. A layman might not be capable to commenting on the oscillation in whatever megahertz, but they can express how the song makes them feel and how clearly the balance of sounds within the song affects that expression. Later, Mike Apple >> everyone who says stuff about SU being over-produced and BMF being produced at >> a real comfortable level... don't bullshit us or yourselves. you never in a >> thousand years would have said that if you hadn't read it in a ton of album >> reviews. > >That assumes one hell of a lot, James. One, that we have a bad ear for music. >Two, that we're sheep. > >Production, and the effect it has on an album, is a very concrete thing. It does >not change, and the way it makes the sounds recorded on the CD sound does not >change. If you don't believe me, try this: listen to an audience-recorded bootleg >of a song and/or a show and then a professionally produced cut of the same song >and/or show (from a live album, perhaps). Let's say, for the sake of argument, >that it is A+ in sonic clarity and recorded from the middle of the stage, in the >front row (or just up front, in the case of standing room concerts). Anybody with >a pair of stereo headphones and enough hearing (about normal hearing) can hear >where the instruments are in relation to where the microphone(s) was(were) >placed. That's called ambience. Since the recording is likely only stereo >(having 2 recordings, for the left and right ears, for the general sound being >produced), it can not be rearranged spatially save for reversing the left and >right channels. Since the source recording is good enough quality, there's not >much that can (or should) be done there. The second recording, the live album (or >live track on a studio album or EP) was likely from a digital multi-track >recording straight from the soundboard. That, of course means that each >microphone placed on the stage, pickup on a guitar/bass, and stereo channel from >each keyboard has its own tracks. The possibilities here are far more wide, and >thus a totally different sound can be created. You want the guitar literally >circling around the drums? You've got it if you've got the software and the >know-how! Want the keyboards to drown out the vocals? Piece of cake! Don't want >to hear the triangle? Completely omit it if you wish! And then there's the >entire matter of overdubs, which are hard to do without a producer, regardless of >whether or not the producer is a band member. These are all *gasp* production >decisions, and they're extremely easy to hear. So easy that even we heathens >could detect them, Mr. Connolly. > >This brings me to your second assumption: that we are sheep and belief in >everything we hear becomes reality. If we actually believed everything we heard >and read in music mags and on eMpTyV, we'd believe the Spice Girls and Hanson >should be revered for bringing back the "fun" in pop. We'd believe that "hip-hop" >is here to stay just because we heard that somewhere. That, from what I have read >on SOMMS (which is mainly people stating their opinions about music), is not >true. Soundgarden is not beat into us and is mentioned (and played) infrequently >enough that we have had to make our own decision to like Soundgarden. That you >would assume that we can't make decisions about production and have to be told >about it is an insult to us, and not something we've earned. >-- >Craig Griffith: High school student, guitar player, King of Craigland >http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Dell/8509/ >"I may make you feel, but I can't make you think" -Ian Anderson ********************************************************* DOUGAL MACLAREN Craeg An Tuirc Of the Clan Laren and the "The Boar's Rock" Mercenaries of the Dragon. "They may take our lives SHIRE OF COLDWOOD but they'll never take our Freedom!" ********************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:41:04 EST From: Lance Huber Subject: Re: production(NEW OPINION) In a message dated 12/10/98 7:24:45 AM, gak@IBM.NET writes: <> Over-production is to many reverb effects, down mixing, layering, sound effects, voice effecting, etc. etc. etc. etc. Want a text book example? Grab any Def Leppard album. I think the greatest singular contribution of the Seattle sound to the world, was that it really got away from "over-produced" albums and got back to a clean natural sound on the instruments. The closest most bands came to was alternative tunings. Sadly, with few exceptions, music seems to be heading back to the over- produced shit. It's sad that anything worth a shit always dies when the band wagon jumping sheep are lead in a different direction. And to be honest, I'm kinda scared about what Chris' new album is going to sound like, because both Ave Maria & Sunshower are way way WAY over-produced. I hope he leans toward a production style similar to Seasons. Lance ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:36:43 PST From: The Cat Subject: Buried drums >In a message dated 12/9/98 8:54:31 AM, GarlicSoul@AOL.COM wrote: > ><drums sound a little thin...maybe even buried,>> Lance Huber wrote: >The album that gave the world Jesus Christ Pose and you think the drums are >buried? > >O-K > >Makes no sense to me, but what-ever. I know what GarlicSoul means. The drums don't sound natural to me on Badmotorfinger, compared to Superunknown and especially DotU. Also, take into consideration of comparing a bootlegged version of, say, Slaves and Bulldozers, to the original version. /\ /\ 'o' -The Cat ==================== The Ask the Cat page: http://www.geocities.com/Pipeline/Dropzone/8176/ ==================== Don't listen to the evil message below..... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:40:55 PST From: The Cat Subject: Buried production >From: William Flanders > >In general, I will listen to music in just about any condition because I'm more >song-oriented than sound-oriented. But in heavy metal and hard rock there is a >fine line between being an ironic mixture of loudness and elegant melodies, and >just being annoying as hell. > >-Bill Does the original version of Birth Ritual cross that line? =) Anyway, all this production talk has got me thinking. Does anyone else find that, compared to the rest of Badmotorfinger, Jesus Christ Pose sounds a little meek, or toned down? Sorta like it could've been recorded in the Ultramega OK sessions? Any live version of JCP blows the original out of the water....maybe that's intentional? /\ /\ 'o' -The Cat ==================== The Ask the Cat page: http://www.geocities.com/Pipeline/Dropzone/8176/ ==================== Don't listen to the evil message below..... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:37:49 EST From: Daniel Bolton Subject: Re: fluttergirl: favorite SG solo? <> The album that gave the world Jesus Christ Pose and you think the drums are buried? O-K Makes no sense to me, but what-ever. Lance Well.. I understand where he's coming from...Listen to first 2 songs on the album... sounds pretty Thin to me...I remember reading somewhere that.. Matt was only Truly satisfied with the Drums Mix on DOTU....Suggesting, that maybe earlier albums.. were less than Satisfactory for him....But.He's Damn Matt Cameron!!!... he's got some Higher standards maybe than some.... -Deek ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:13:06 -0500 From: "Steven Russell Jr." Subject: Re: production(NEW OPINION) Hey list! I actually read your posts Geoff, so i thought i'd comment :) Geoff Kleemola wrote: > > First of all, I don't think there is any such thing as "over-production". au contraire mon frere! Someone used the example of Def Leppard. Exactly, they are extremely overproduced. Other examples of overproduction would include any 'diva' album. Celine, Whitney, Mariah etc. Also, Bryan Adams...um....anything by Mutt Lange so that includes his wife's (Shania, hmmmm...one word name, is she a diva?) crap. Steely Dan was overproduced as well, so was Tears for Fears. Both bands spent an eternity in the studio working on a single bell sound. Then, the resulting work was so complex, it was impossible to reproduce live. Neither act was ever considered a good live band ;) For some reason The Alan Parsons project comes to mind as another of those bands. Even though it was AP who engineered Floyd's _Dark Side of the Moon_. As you can see, only the bigger bands are overproduced, so i'm sure some listers actually like the names i've thrown around. I'll admit to liking Steely Dan ;) For me...i find overproduction boring, tedious and methodical with a complete and utter lack of soul. If you want to see if those 'diva's' are actually talented...let's see them record on a mono 4 track and compare their soul to aretha or billi holiday or anyone else that can cut through the production and move the masses. As for the other bands...they are either studio freaks like that Rowland dude from TfF. Or they are record company darlings who have an ear for candy. I > don't know what that is. If people are going to continue using this term, I > hope someone will define it. I can't really put it in words, but i know it when i hear it ;) I'm sure some of the technical people on the list can give a far better word definition of overproduction. > On a related note, I wasn't sure, Bill what your point was about Led Zeppelin, > but in case anybody is informed any other way, Jimmy Page was/is a studio > genius. Yes, he was. He produced all of Zep's albums. He gained all that knowledge from being a studio musician in the early to late 60's. And don't forget the studio magic of John Paul Jones. He provided all the orchestration for Zep's songs and was a bigger and more successful studio musician then Page! He worked almost exclusively in the studio for many years before Led > Zep. That's because it paid more! Page was totally driven by money and the rock n roll lifestyle :) Besides the music, the production of almost any LZ album is amazing. > Compare it to any other band of the era, (or any era for that matter) besides > those he worked on, and there will be no comparison. They were amazing musicians and they had the luxury of recording in some of the worlds' best acoustic places with the help of the Rolling Stones mobile studio. I read somewhere that they had mikes in the toilets of Headley Grange! And they used them in the mix! steve - school still sucks ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:30:25 -0500 From: Craig Griffith Subject: Re: production(NEW OPINION) "Steven Russell Jr." wrote: > The Alan Parsons project comes to mind as > another of those bands. Even though it was AP who > engineered Floyd's _Dark Side of the Moon_. Not to mention the excellent _Atom Heart Mother_. -- Craig Griffith: High school student, guitar player, King of Craigland http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Dell/8509/ "I may make you feel, but I can't make you think" -Ian Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:34:16 +0000 From: William Flanders Subject: Re: production(NEW OPINION) Geoff Kleemola wrote: > > First of all, I don't think there is any such thing as "over-production". I > don't know what that is. If people are going to continue using this term, I > hope someone will define it. What constitutes over-production, and how is it > achieved? I am by noe means any kind of expert on the subject, so someone can > correct me if I'm wrong. To me, there is good production and bad production. > It is not a matter of amount. If you're talking about some kind of magical > process that goes on, and that can go on to long and ruin a record, I think you > are dreaming. It all comes down to the sound that is captured and played back > on your cd player. This sound has a great deal to do with acoustics. Some > producers do it well, and others not so well. Listen to Enya sometime. Listen to it, then put the notes on the staff. You'll be amazed at how little is there musically, and how much is there in the way of reverb, overdubs and other studio magic. > On a related note, I wasn't sure, Bill what your point was about Led Zeppelin, > but in case anybody is informed any other way, Jimmy Page was/is a studio > genius. He worked almost exclusively in the studio for many years before Led > Zep. Besides the music, the production of almost any LZ album is amazing. > Compare it to any other band of the era, (or any era for that matter) besides > those he worked on, and there will be no comparison. > Geoff I suppose we all have our own ears and own opinions. But after hearing hundereds of live songs by the band and all the studio tracks, I've found that Zeppelin's studio music is fairly raw. Yes, Jimmy Page was a master in the studio for his time, but not Let me try to nail it down this overproduction business. 1. It's not overproduced because the instruments contain natural timing nuances (in other words, it doesn't sound like a music box). 2. It doesn't contain murky studio effects (only some of which were around in the early 70s). And, in my opinion, Page's production is to my tastes, but as far as pure sonic quality goes, it's not as heavily produced as most modern music. Listen to any old Pink Floyd album and then even the newly released "Walking into Clarksdale" Page-Plant album, and you'll see what I mean by raw production. Anyway, this is getting somewhat off-topic, and I'll admit I can only base these ideas on what I hear, but this *is* a proof-is-in-the-pudding sort of endeavor, isn't it? -Bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:59:32 +0000 From: William Flanders Subject: Re: production(NEW OPINION) William Flanders wrote: > > Geoff Kleemola wrote: > > > > First of all, I don't think there is any such thing as "over-production". I > > don't know what that is. If people are going to continue using this term, I > > hope someone will define it. What constitutes over-production, and how is it > > achieved? I am by noe means any kind of expert on the subject, so someone can > > correct me if I'm wrong. To me, there is good production and bad production. > > It is not a matter of amount. If you're talking about some kind of magical > > process that goes on, and that can go on to long and ruin a record, I think you > > are dreaming. It all comes down to the sound that is captured and played back > > on your cd player. This sound has a great deal to do with acoustics. Some > > producers do it well, and others not so well. > > Listen to Enya sometime. Listen to it, then put the notes on the > staff. You'll be amazed at how little is there musically, and how much > is there in the way of reverb, overdubs and other studio magic. > > > On a related note, I wasn't sure, Bill what your point was about Led Zeppelin, > > but in case anybody is informed any other way, Jimmy Page was/is a studio > > genius. He worked almost exclusively in the studio for many years before Led > > Zep. Besides the music, the production of almost any LZ album is amazing. > > Compare it to any other band of the era, (or any era for that matter) besides > > those he worked on, and there will be no comparison. > > Geoff > > I suppose we all have our own ears and own opinions. But after hearing > hundereds of live songs by the band and all the studio tracks, I've > found that Zeppelin's studio music is fairly raw. Yes, Jimmy Page was a > master in the studio for his time, but not > > Let me try to nail it down this overproduction business. > > 1. It's not overproduced because the instruments contain natural timing > nuances (in other words, it doesn't sound like a music box). > > 2. It doesn't contain murky studio effects (only some of which were > around in the early 70s). > > And, in my opinion, Page's production is to my tastes, but as far as > pure sonic quality goes, it's not as heavily produced as most modern > music. Listen to any old Pink Floyd album and then even the newly > released "Walking into Clarksdale" Page-Plant album, and you'll see what > I mean by raw production. > > Anyway, this is getting somewhat off-topic, and I'll admit I can only > base these ideas on what I hear, but this *is* a proof-is-in-the-pudding > sort of endeavor, isn't it? > > -Bill Oh my goodness... that's got to be the most convoluted message I've ever sent. Have fun knocking it around. -Bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 20:29:23 EST From: Igor Nepomnyashchiy Subject: Re: production(NEW OPINION) note on over production... maybe thats when you "polish" the sound and instead of just using production for good things like equalizing the volumes to your liking(I know it has MUCH more uses) you make the whole thing sound synthetic-- ex.:Third Eye Blind- might sound ok to some people (never can figure their popularity out) but it doesn't have feeling... i think overproduction takes away feeling... and the great thing about SG is that on all albums its not just the music and the words, its also the feeling and the emotion ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 20:31:50 -0500 From: glenn king <688120@ICAN.NET> Subject: Pleases remove me from the list, thank you Could you please remove me from the list, and thanks for all the good information. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:52:45 -0600 From: "Mike I. Jones" Subject: Anarchy TV Hey Sommies, I was doing some homework, and i noticed this one page for a movie, TV show or something called "Anarchy TV". It starrs a bunch of losers, but the thing that caught my eye was the soundtrack part. All it says on it is Soundgarden, and the link takes you to www.imusic.com/soundgarden and that's it. It doesn't say what songs are on it or anything. If you have any info, mail back. slitmeopenandsuckmy ------------------------------ End of SOMMS Digest - 10 Dec 1998 to 11 Dec 1998 ************************************************