SOMMS Digest - 9 Dec 1998 to 10 Dec 1998 [ 29KB. ] [ Unable to print this part. ] There are 23 messages totalling 734 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. anger, production, etc. (2) 2. Possible Thread? (production) (4) 3. stomach's burning alcohol... (2) 4. Ultramega Extras (wasPossible Thread? (production)) 5. fluttergirl: favorite SG solo? (3) 6. Production 7. production(NEW OPINION) (5) 8. Big News with Matt!!! 9. God's drummer 10. Fave Chris quotes 11. pricing 12. Rolling Stone Online article To UNSUBSCRIBE from SOMMS, send email to LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU with the following in the body of your message: SIGNOFF SOMMS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 02:44:19 -0500 From: jenny grover Subject: anger, production, etc. Interesting song, Zero Chance. It seems to affect different people in different ways. I must say that I never thought of it as an angry song, but I can see elements of anger in it now. It seems to me to be anger directed at a situation, though, not so much at the person it's addressed to, ie. I can be angry about what depression is doing to some of my best friends, but I'm not angry at them for it. This passivity of tone takes the edge off. I remember reading a review that described Zero Chance as "bleak" and thinking "bleak? really?" Then I listened to just the words and if you do that you could see it as bleak. For me, however, and the music figures very heavily in this, it has always been a sort of song of affirmation, comforting, at times even uplifting. "Why doesn't anyone believe in loneliness? Stand up and everyone can see your holiness." It says to me that loneliness is real and the speaker has a reverence for someone who truly understands that. I think there is a sense of weakened hope and resignation in this song too-- "On the plus and minus, zero chance of ever turning this around. They say if you look hard you'll find your way back home. Born without a friend and bound to die alone." I would say that it's quite far from being the angriest SG song, though. As for production, DOTU gets my vote. It has a live feel when and where it counts. It has just the right amount of grit and rawness, but it's clear and clean where it needs to be. I like the incidental noise on it that many bands or producers would be inclined to clean up, like the string noise in the intro of Switch Opens. It adds not only a bit of percussive punch to the notes, but a very human touch. It's a nice foil to the bell-like tones in the song proper. DOTU has some breathing room in its songs. BMF and even SU tended more toward a wall of sound. LTL is slick and overproduced, and UMOK, while raw and admirably stripped down in places, lacks the tonal richness and dimension of DOTU. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:30:31 +0000 From: William Flanders Subject: Re: anger, production, etc. Here's my production top 6: 1. DOTU 2. Superunknown 3. BMF 4. Screaming Life 5. Louder than Love 6. Ultramega OK UMOK is the only album I own of any band where I've considered digitally re-producing the sound, because it honestly hurts my ears sometimes. Angriest song? The demo of Fell on Black Days. Kathleen, take your medicine. -Bill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 01:09:49 -0800 From: ? Subject: Re: Possible Thread? (production) On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Brian Kirkner wrote: > > In fact, the only thing that I really dislike about the record is that > you can't hear what they're saying in "One Minute of Silence." > You must have the volume turned down, or you would have been able to hear the angels singing. Tiffany /\/\^^/\/\ Vampyre Cat ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 05:21:22 EST From: Ben Timberlake Subject: Re: stomach's burning alcohol... >It's not a >hard core speed kinda song like Ty Cobb, the kinda song that makes you >drive 25 mph faster and scream "Fuck you all", but I hear anger in the >music and lyrics. Thank you, Barbara, for helping me figure out what was wrong with me when I was trying to think of angry soundgarden songs. I know I hear so much anger in a lot of the songs, but when I tried to think of them, I could only think of the jumping-around-angry ones. Mailman is the perfect example of that cold, stoney anger that perhaps better represents that emotion in soundgarden's music. Songs that typify this to me: Incessant Mace, Nothing to Say, New Damage, Holy Water, Mailman (of course), and jeez, half of DOTU (but especially zero chance, butow, tighter & tighter, switch opens, boot camp.) Of course, I've been pretty angry in general for the past year and a half so maybe I'm projecting anger where it really isn't. I think if I try, I can jump around and grimace menacingly while lip synching almost all of soundgarden's songs, thereby making most of them angry. (visit my angry lip synching web page for pictures of me in the act at www.goofyben.com/not.really) -- Ben Ben Timberlake Sure don't Mind btimlake@aol.com A change. "The day I tried to win, I wallowed in the blood and mud with all the other pigs, and I learned that I was a liar." --Chris Cornell, "The Day I Tried To Live" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 07:27:41 EST From: Mike Liacone Subject: Re: Ultramega Extras (wasPossible Thread? (production)) In a message dated 12/9/98 3:17:47 AM Central Standard Time, vamprcat@EMRL.COM writes: << In fact, the only thing that I really dislike about the record is that > you can't hear what they're saying in "One Minute of Silence." > >> another tid bit on Ultramega, is 665. i have it on vinyl, and i played it backwards, and nearly pissed my pants. clear as day you hear "i love you santa baby" and i think he did a rendtition of biz markie's "you got what i need". but dont hole me to that. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:51:43 EST From: Shawnte Orion Subject: fluttergirl: favorite SG solo? << Badmotorfinger is the best produced album by soundgarden. >> I love the BMF sound, for the most part, but I've always thought that the drums sound a little thin...maybe even buried, on that one. I like the sound of Matt's drums, much better on DOTU. People are frequently mentioning Fluttergirl, regarding different SG topics. I have not yet heard that one, unfortunately. Is that actually a soundgarden song, or is that one of the solo Chris songs (as Seasons), from Jeff Ament's Cliff Poncier demo tape? I was always under the impression that it wasnt soundgarden. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:54:09 EST From: Lance Huber Subject: Re: fluttergirl: favorite SG solo? In a message dated 12/9/98 8:54:31 AM, GarlicSoul@AOL.COM wrote: <> The album that gave the world Jesus Christ Pose and you think the drums are buried? O-K Makes no sense to me, but what-ever. Lance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:27:38 -0800 From: Mark Miller Subject: Production I would have to put my vote in for DOTU. I always thought soungarden got screwed on the production side. Maybe it wasn't the producer's fault but I never really liked the recorded sound of any of the instruments. With the exception of CC's voice everything sounds muddy and flat. Listen to the guitar sound of soundgarden on any of the "heavy" albums versus Tool's guitar sound on Undertow. Sylvia Massey (Tool) was really able to blend the guitar and bass frequencies to make everything sound really fat. I always felt like that was missing on the SG albums. Of course I can only think of 2 albums that have achieved that sound so... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:20:35 -0500 From: MICHAEL APPLE Subject: Re: Possible Thread? (production) Date sent: 9-DEC-1998 12:18:07 >There is such a thing as "over-production". >Badmotorfinger is not over produced which is just one more reason why it is >the best album that ever came from the creative corner of Soundgarden. The >pinnacle, the zenith, simply put..................the best. >Lance I do indeed concur wholeheartedly; Badmotorfinger is their best record . They really gave free rein to their creativity, trying new tunings and experimenting with arrangements. It's really like a symphony in a lot of ways. Later, Mike Apple ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:29:14 -0500 From: MICHAEL APPLE Subject: Re: fluttergirl: favorite SG solo? Date sent: 9-DEC-1998 12:25:26 >People are frequently mentioning Fluttergirl, regarding different SG topics. I >have not yet heard that one, unfortunately. Is that actually a soundgarden >song, or is that one of the solo Chris songs (as Seasons), from Jeff Ament's >Cliff Poncier demo tape? I was always under the impression that it wasnt >soundgarden. You can find it on a boot called "Stolen Prayer" along with demoes of Spoonman, Reach Down, and a bunch of stuff Chris did for Ozzy Osbourne. All the parts on it were recorded by Chris himself, although I doubt he recorded it in his closet (like he did with Seasons. :) Anyone know if there's a studio version of Fluttergirl or if Chris is planning on putting it on his new record? Later, Mike Apple ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 16:12:36 EST From: James Connolly Subject: production(NEW OPINION) hey everyone, this might just ruffle some feathers so hold on tight. everyone who says stuff about SU being over-produced and BMF being produced at a real comfortable level... don't bullshit us or yourselves. you never in a thousand years would have said that if you hadn't read it in a ton of album reviews. the only thing i can really agree to is that the production on UMOK, SL/FOPP and LTL sucks. you see, (most)album critics are chosen because they have such keen ears for audio. you would never have bothered contrasting the production of SG's last 3 albums even if you do have keen ears. reviewers have to look out for that kind of shit and I just doubt you really do. don't get me wrong: if i didn't get this insight into how lame this thread is out of the blue(the blue in my head), i would have said the same shit as you people are saying. why did i bother saying this to you? i have no idea. by the way, Master P. sucks, and I'm not just whistlin dixie about rap(i think busta rhymes is the man, ICP are too) see ya jimi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 19:43:35 EST From: Matt Hammons Subject: Re: production(NEW OPINION) <> The stuff I agree with: Busta Rhymes IS the man. The stuff I don't agree with: Just because you may not know as much about production as an audio engineer, doesn't mean the rest of us are clueless. A producer's job is to make music sound good to those who don't understand what it's all about. So even if you don't know all about studio engineering, YET music sounds good to you then that just proves my point. Besides, here's some math: Bashing a Thread + Not Starting Your Own Thread = Bad Post ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:05:32 EST From: Evan Frees Subject: Re: stomach's burning alcohol... There are so many..."Tears To Forget" comes to mind ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 17:32:21 PST From: The Koggle Subject: Re: Possible Thread? (production) G'day Sommsters, ...and the winner for Best Imagery on SOMMS for a Long Time goes to Craig Griffith for this gem: "The bass, though virtuosic in playing, sounds like it was played on a Crate 10-watt amp wrapped in wet towels and recorded through a telephone encased in styrofoam" Your prize is the satisfaction of cracking me up and making me enjoy reading the digest today. I'm really liking this thread.. :) I am *nowhere* near an expert on production, so I'm not sure if what I have to say holds much value.. Don't you think when the guys are planning a future album (writing, choosing instruments, selecting a recording studio) they decide that they want a certain sound on each album? I mean maybe they choose (well, 'chose') a certain person/place to help them get the desired sound? For example, maybe Superunknown (an album not quite up to Badmotorfinger's status, huh Lance? hehe) was created to sound obviously *worked* at.. it all sounds pretty perfect. Not *many* songs that are 'risks' as far as being likeable (I'm not forgetting 'Half' okay!). Radio friendly? you might say so... But then could it just turn out like that by chance? how have things developed in the world of record production? Since some of us agree that the earlier albums sound more raw and unpolished compared to the later albums, could this be due to Soundgarden's financial status at that time? (unable to afford the latest/better quality equipment) or because of the way things were run then? Or simply because their style changed as they went along in their career (or just got older)? Please.. inform me if you think you know the answers or just want to discuss it.. Someone mentioned how the singles from DOTU (burden in my hand, blow up the outside world.. etc etc) sound different from the other songs. I've noticed that too. Is it because we hear them on the radio more often than the others? :) I'm so impressed with how much you guys know about production.. did i miss something in school? I feel so dumb heheh later, Koggle ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:08:46 EST From: Ryan Parks Subject: Big News with Matt!!! Hey Sommies, Yes, big, big news...Matt is confirmed to join Pearl Jam early next year to rehearse and jam. The article (confirmed by manager Kelly Curtis) does not state whether Matt will join permanently, but does state that Matt: "will get together [with the rest of the band] after the first of the year to jam and see if they can make a record together," -Kelly Curtis My Cameron page has the whole article posted :) it's hear: http://members.tripod.com/~walpurgisnight/intro.html Good news...I'm giddy even though I pretty much bombed my physics final... Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:22:23 -0500 From: Craig Griffith Subject: Re: production(NEW OPINION) James Connolly wrote: > everyone who says stuff about SU being over-produced and BMF being produced at > a real comfortable level... don't bullshit us or yourselves. you never in a > thousand years would have said that if you hadn't read it in a ton of album > reviews. That assumes one hell of a lot, James. One, that we have a bad ear for music. Two, that we're sheep. Production, and the effect it has on an album, is a very concrete thing. It does not change, and the way it makes the sounds recorded on the CD sound does not change. If you don't believe me, try this: listen to an audience-recorded bootleg of a song and/or a show and then a professionally produced cut of the same song and/or show (from a live album, perhaps). Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it is A+ in sonic clarity and recorded from the middle of the stage, in the front row (or just up front, in the case of standing room concerts). Anybody with a pair of stereo headphones and enough hearing (about normal hearing) can hear where the instruments are in relation to where the microphone(s) was(were) placed. That's called ambience. Since the recording is likely only stereo (having 2 recordings, for the left and right ears, for the general sound being produced), it can not be rearranged spatially save for reversing the left and right channels. Since the source recording is good enough quality, there's not much that can (or should) be done there. The second recording, the live album (or live track on a studio album or EP) was likely from a digital multi-track recording straight from the soundboard. That, of course means that each microphone placed on the stage, pickup on a guitar/bass, and stereo channel from each keyboard has its own tracks. The possibilities here are far more wide, and thus a totally different sound can be created. You want the guitar literally circling around the drums? You've got it if you've got the software and the know-how! Want the keyboards to drown out the vocals? Piece of cake! Don't want to hear the triangle? Completely omit it if you wish! And then there's the entire matter of overdubs, which are hard to do without a producer, regardless of whether or not the producer is a band member. These are all *gasp* production decisions, and they're extremely easy to hear. So easy that even we heathens could detect them, Mr. Connolly. This brings me to your second assumption: that we are sheep and belief in everything we hear becomes reality. If we actually believed everything we heard and read in music mags and on eMpTyV, we'd believe the Spice Girls and Hanson should be revered for bringing back the "fun" in pop. We'd believe that "hip-hop" is here to stay just because we heard that somewhere. That, from what I have read on SOMMS (which is mainly people stating their opinions about music), is not true. Soundgarden is not beat into us and is mentioned (and played) infrequently enough that we have had to make our own decision to like Soundgarden. That you would assume that we can't make decisions about production and have to be told about it is an insult to us, and not something we've earned. -- Craig Griffith: High school student, guitar player, King of Craigland http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Dell/8509/ "I may make you feel, but I can't make you think" -Ian Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:28:26 -0400 From: "Mr.Product!" Subject: Re: Possible Thread? (production) ill probably get mocked for this, but my pick definately goes to Louder Than love for the best album.i dont know why, its just one of those things you cant and shouldn't try to analyze.Its got everything, its the best, nuff said.dont ask me why. all for now mr product ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:18:44 EST From: Shawnte Orion Subject: God's drummer In a message dated 12/9/98 9:54:09 AM US Mountain Standard Time, KAISERVRBL writes: << The album that gave the world Jesus Christ Pose and you think the drums are buried? >> Since you bring up JCP, have you ever seen them play it live? Or do you have any live recordings of it? Or even on my all-time favorite, Slaves And Bulldozers. Even the poor recording of it on the SOMMS disc will shame the drums on the album version. listening to Matt punishing my speakers on a live version, as I type this, shawnte ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:29:40 -0400 From: "Mr.Product!" Subject: Re: Fave Chris quotes > >plus, a challenge to the drummers on this list. while practicing to dotu last >night, i found my self completely stumped on never the machine forever. any of >you folks out there lick this beat-keepers abbomination? how? > >thanks >charlie charlie: think of the whole verse pattern as a broken up paradiddle and then a measure of 5/8. and then if that stumps you, just kinbd of follow the riff, anticipate. for the harmonic poart and the one that contains(forever means all is not seen), play 1 8th note on the hats, and then a normal 4/4 rock beat every time the riff goes by. thats how i did it. once you really can hear the song in your head, its no big deal to play. perfection on ntmf, however, is pretty near impossible. mr. product ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:30:12 -0400 From: "Mr.Product!" Subject: pricing i just bought a blue clear vynil Fopp/sub pop rock city.here are the specs: dated 3/10/89, with Sub Pop logo switced to Pub Sop. it says it is limited to 500 copies, kong and the robotic kong on the front. i bought it for 20 bucks.was it worth it? im just looking for a ballpark estimate, thanks. mr.product ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:40:49 -0500 From: Michelle Subject: Re: production(NEW OPINION) >a real comfortable level... don't bullshit us or yourselves. you never in a >thousand years would have said that if you hadn't read it in a ton of album >reviews. the only thing i can really agree to is that the production on UMOK, >SL/FOPP and LTL sucks. you see, (most)album critics are chosen because they >have such keen ears for audio. you would never have bothered contrasting the >production of SG's last 3 albums even if you do have keen ears. So what's your damn point? Should we revert to flaming or even more useless and pointless discussions? I don't read reviews. I don't give a shit about reviewers, their reviews, or why they are reviewers. And I don't think that there's anything wrong with the general public (who do not possess the golden ears that you imply that these reviewers do have) having an honest discussion about another aspect of Soundgarden's albums. Production was a good idea for a thread. Even though you seem to think that the people on the list are idle followers who couldn't possibly have thought about the production of an album without reviews. And even if the idea was somehow spawned by a review...so what? Does that mean that it's not worthy of discussion? Whoa, we better stop reading completely because it may cause us to think about something that we may have overlooked before. It may make us think in new ways. And God forbid that people who are not experts on a subject discuss it. So those of you on the list who aren't experts on music or music reviewers, you better not discuss it. You must sit quietly and have no new thoughts. Remember this person who doesn't know you said that you wouldn't have thought to contrast the production on your own. Therefore, it must be so! You cursed review readers you. (*wagging finger*) OK. I'm done rambling. Perhaps this would have been better as a private flame. But sometimes I just feel the need to give someone a virtual *smack*. And sometimes that's more fun to do in public! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 04:12:53 +0000 From: William Flanders Subject: Re: production(NEW OPINION) Just my take on this "we read it in reviews" idea. I've never read anything at all about the production of Soundgarden albums. What makes production value an important topic to me is that over the past... say 30 years there has been a continual replacement of musical quality with production quality in rock. Listen to how raw and alive Led Zeppelin's sound was and is compared to Everclear and the Goo Goo Dolls. Basically, I'm saying that musical merit and production quality are two entirely different things. But, unfortunately, it takes some minimum production quality for most people to enjoy music. And at some quality beyond what's normal, music becomes gawdy and somewhat fake sounding to most of us. This is a qualm with most electronic and "world" music as well. In general, I will listen to music in just about any condition because I'm more song-oriented than sound-oriented. But in heavy metal and hard rock there is a fine line between being an ironic mixture of loudness and elegant melodies, and just being annoying as hell. -Bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:25:51 EST From: Nick Boos Subject: Rolling Stone Online article Here is the Rolling Stone article that has to do with Matt: Yield" tour drummer Matt Cameron to begin next chapter with Pearl Jam Will the real Pearl Jam drummer please stand up? Well, as of right now there is none, but when the band reconvenes some time next month to jam in a Seattle rehearsal space it will be with the "Yield" tour skinsman Matt Cameron -- not Yield drummer Jack Irons. Though Cameron has not been named an official replacement for drummer Jack Irons (who reportedly did not join Pearl Jam on their tour last April because of manic depression), Cameron "will get together [with the rest of the band] after the first of the year to jam and see if they can make a record together," according to band manager Kelly Curtis. Irons, still officially a member of Pearl Jam, is the band's third drummer, not including an unofficial stint by Cameron (then a member of Soundgarden), who played on demos of songs like "Alive" and "Animal" prior to the recording of 1991's Ten, which was done with original drummer Dave Krusen. "They have all their options open," Curtis says, "so they're not gonna make any decisions until they get back together. "They're gonna jam with Matt," he continues, "but that doesn't mean they're gonna make a record together with Matt." Cameron toured with Pearl Jam during the entire three-leg "Yield" tour, which spawned the recently released Live on Two Legs album. According to a source close to the situation, Cameron isn't so much auditioning for the spot as he is deciding if he actually wants the gig. "I think it's all gonna be cool," says the source, who believes Cameron will likely become a permanent member of Pearl Jam at some point next year. Can I get a big FUCK YEAH!? -Nick aka Spackle ------------------------------ End of SOMMS Digest - 9 Dec 1998 to 10 Dec 1998 ***********************************************