From: somms@mit.edu To: somms-digest@mit.edu Subject: Soundgarden Digest, Saturday, 16 Mar 1996 Reply-To: somms@mit.edu Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 02:32:58 EST Sender: saperl The Soundgarden Digest: Saturday, 16 Mar 1996 listadmin: saperl@mit.edu list archive: http://www.sgi.net/soundgarden/archive/ TO UNSUBSCRIBE: email saperl@mit.edu Today's Topics: when new damage comes... hah! Re: hah! Re: Tours SG DollZ Re: article Toledo,the home of the mud hens (Fwd) Today's many topics (Fwd) Re: Tours (Fwd) when new damage comes... (Fwd) Re: (Fwd) New Seattle Documentary BYE! Re: um... Re: Tours We are working on it!! Re: Tours This silly "Matt Cameron" mystery... Re: This silly "Matt Cameron" mystery... Spoonman yes the shirt again um... somms on t-shirt Re: T-shirts....what else? :-) Just putting my two cents in It is really me Re: This silly "Matt Cameron" mystery... fake mail and why it doesn't work Re: It is really me Re: SG DollZ LIVE SOUNDGARDEN hehehe Shirt Poll OTHER COOL BANDS LIKE SOUNDGARDEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------ From: blind dog Subject: when new damage comes... On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, R. Kingsnorth wrote: > personal experience. Whatever that means. He also said that the new > album was different, less riffy, with less of a Soundgarden stamp > but still with the distinctive sound. He said it was weirder & Ben > had done a lot more songwriting, and he said it was more > vocals-oriented. He also said that one of the songs was ''almost > ambient''. Well, this all sounds very interesting to me anyway. from what we have now heard, the album sounds very interesting, and will probably be a bit of a departure for the band. 'more vocal oriented' sounds very intriguing, though I hope they don't loose their ability to lash out with a big let me drown riff. it should also be cool considering that maybe the album won't be written mostly by chris (not that chris' writing is unliked around here). more stuff written by kim and ben couldn't hurt, but I also hope that matt has turned his hand at writing some more material. as for ambience, can we read jerry garcia's finger into that? I'm not sure what soundgarden ambience would sound like, but I'm sure we'll all have something mostly good to say about it :) seth, are you going to ask matt for some advance soundclips? ----------------------------------- a thousand doors, a thousand lies rooms a thousand years wide ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: ShRooMGrLz@aol.com Subject: hah! Guess what peoples? I've found someone who sells Soundgarden Light Switch Plates and Outlet Covers. She says she's got all new pictures in. What's next? Maybe Ben will bottle his spit and sell it for people to sprinkle on themselves? What could Chris, Kim and Matt sell? Hmmm... maybe MATT can answer that question himself. Yah, right... Shroom ------------------------------ Subject: Re: hah! From: "Matt Cameron" > > Guess what peoples? I've found someone who sells Soundgarden Light > Switch Plates and Outlet Covers. She says she's got all new pictures in. > What's next? Maybe Ben will bottle his spit and sell it for people to > sprinkle on themselves? What could Chris, Kim and Matt sell? Hmmm... maybe > MATT can answer that question himself. Yah, right... > Shroom I think I would sell broken drumsticks. Matt ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Tours From: "Matthew Lawrence" > > >& seeing as the tour would be in Britain > > > Manic Street Preachers > > ........NOOOO....TERRORVISION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hey, What about Reef? Matt ------------------------------ From: Jammie Subject: SG DollZ hey, just outta curiousity, if there were any SG dolls on the market, you know, the ones w/ the string that if you pull it they would say something, what do you think they would say? and what would they be wearing? just thought i'd throw that in for creative thought :) jammie ------------------------------ Subject: Re: article From: "Matthew Lawrence" > p.p.s. seth - you've seen _how_ many copies of somms in the same shop? - > I've never even seen screaming life/fopp - that's how bad it is here :( > I managed to find Screaming Life/fopp.. Once. How would the lucky americans on the list like to send some copies of somms over here to merrie olde England. We could certainly do with some. :) Matt (hoping against hope?) ------------------------------ From: Erin Blue Subject: Toledo,the home of the mud hens I live about 30 minutes from Toledo. anyone interested in camping on my lawn for lollapalooza email me.I heard that it might be on THIRD OF JULY!!!! Ill even spring for a keg or two. We love to go BOWLing(hint, hint,wink,wink).maybe even wander the cow pastures for those fungis amungus. erin blue ================================================================================ hadtheurgetobuildacagearoundthesuncouldntfindawaytosaynotookacheckonallthemetersinmyroomkickedthedogandsaid,"Lets Go."DAVE WYNDORF @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ------------------------------ From: "R. Kingsnorth" Subject: (Fwd) Today's many topics . >ugh about it! And to that guy Beck, hey man I'll go and take lots of >pictures! (just kidding, I'm not that arrogant!) Anyway, I have an Idea on how >you could go to lolla. but I'm not sure if you want to hear it!! Let me know! >I'm gonna break my rusted cage and run!!!!!!!!! ..............HI! I am Beck. I'm a girl though (just thought I'd let everyone know so I clear this up once and for all...) .............Tell me this idea!! I am interested - is it a _real_ idea...? Mail to : rk12@leicester.ac.uk ................SHAG!! If that Matt Cameron message really_ was_ from Matt Cameron, I'm going to miss any more installments for a while as my Easter break begins in about 3 hours!! Well Matt, I bet you're not you, but if you are, then....uh...please make sure the band comes to England and plays Brixton Academy! Ta......... Beck ------------------------------ From: "R. Kingsnorth" Subject: (Fwd) Re: Tours >Thers's no particular order to the list of bands on. .....It would be pretty hard to decide really. Maybe they should all play AT ONCE!!! Er, maybe not. > If your going to do a decent tour >each event has got to be special. Each event on this would have to be 24 hours. I .....HEY! I'd go!! >For all those interested in Terrorvision has anyone got the new album yet - I want >to know if it;'s as good as the other two and whether I need to buy it right now. >Loadsa Luck Nik! ......YOU NEED TO GET IT NOW!!!!!!! I got it yesterday...it is soooo good. Yes, yes, yes, yes, YES!!!!!!!!! Wow. Long live Terrorvision..yeah, get down to the record shop now!! Beck ------------------------------ From: "R. Kingsnorth" Subject: (Fwd) when new damage comes... >from what we have now heard, the album sounds very interesting, >and will probably be a bit of a departure for the band. .....yeah, sounds very cool indeed - I can't wait for May to roll around, that's for sure... >'more vocal >oriented' sounds very intriguing, though I hope they don't loose their >ability to lash out with a big let me drown riff. .....yeah, it does sound interesting. I'm sure they'll never lose that 'riffability' though!! > I also hope that matt has turned his hand >at writing some more material. ..yeah, so do I. I think he's a cool songwriter. >as for ambience, can we read jerry garcia's finger into that? I'm >not sure what soundgarden ambience would sound like, but I'm sure we'll >all have something mostly good to say about it :) ..........This is the most interesting part of all. 'Ambient'...hmmm, I just wish the album would come out now. I think 'soundgarden ambience' is probably almost impossible to imagine until you've heard it, then when we've heard it we'll all be going ' yeh....I would never have imagined that but it seems to really fit in now''....... May will certainly be a very big month as far as list discussions are concerned... ; ) Beck ------------------------------ From: "R. Kingsnorth" Subject: (Fwd) Re: (Fwd) New Seattle Documentary >> >I just read that, "Eddie Vedder jammed at the pary for 'Hype!,' a documentary >> >ode to Seattle grunge." Does anyone know if SG is going to be featured in >> >this? > >......Yes, they are. NOT THAT THE BRITISH WILL EVER SEE IT!!!!!!!! >Unless of course a kindly american would like to send a batch of videos over >to keep us poor brits satisfied... ;P > Matt .....Yeah - anyone..?? Like howabout sending about 100 vids or something....then we can seel 'em... (??) ; D Beck - no, I guess not... ------------------------------ From: "R. Kingsnorth" Subject: BYE! HI list! Well, I'm leaving now for my Easter hols......keep chatting!! And the cool thing is......by the time the British university holidays are over it will be 1 month till the release of the album!! I like to see things in perspective...... Happy March & April folks!! (ps...Shroom...keep having those wonderful fantasies!!) Bye-bye-bye-for-now! Beck ------------------------------ From: "Mercyhurst Prep Library" Subject: Re: um... On 14 Mar 96 at 16:32, toybox wrote: > Not to be elitist or anything, but how come most of these > people talking about the shirt design are people whose > addresses i don't recognize? what happened to the people that > ALWAYS have something to say? I mean, i know Carolyn took > count, and nothing man is doing invoice or whatever, but i want > to hear from the people whose addresses usually fill my box. > Not that the other votes are any less important, i just feel > like i know those people a little better. any one else agree? > Or am i just an elitist meathead scum? -j > > "The second drummer drowned, his telephone was found..." > No, Toybox, I understand you perfectly and I even have to agree with you! It took something like a list tee to get more people talking on the list! Amazing! Just when I thouhgt it was all settled too, suddenly people are talking aobut new designs AGAIN, and the color issue is still up for debate too. Can we just get it settled? Shall we once again take a poll? Carolyn, Seth, somebody--what do YOU say?? cyl...deb ------------------------------ From: Holland N B Subject: Re: Tours On Fri, 15 Mar 1996, Matthew Lawrence wrote: > > > >& seeing as the tour would be in Britain > > > > Manic Street Preachers > > > ........NOOOO....TERRORVISION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Hey, What about Reef? > > Matt > I've a better idea One tour for the likes of SG and FNM and then a second tour for purely British bands: Terrorvision Manics Reef Cast Loadsa Luck Nik "Just because your paranoid Don't mean they're not after you!" Nirvana ------------------------------ Subject: We are working on it!! From: tonerkin@usa.pipeline.com (Tonerkin) >NM and I have been in contact and are trying to get these shirts going. He is >still collecting addresses. Ben is collecting votes -right Ben????? I have >visited my neighborhood Post Office (viewed their fine hall of fame of >digruntled employees) and UPS to get shipping info. So as soon (4-20) we get >the list and you guys decide on shirt design. I told Nothingman if everyone is >still arguing we'll just take a majority of who we have heard from!! So if you >have an like an idea or just want to be augumentive!!(yes, Kim you can have a >t-shirt but no pictures of a cold brew on it) get your vote in!!! Once we have >the numbers and design Nothingman can get a t-shirt price and I can start >collecting $$$$$$$!!!! BTW I vote for somms@mit.edu. , the fork and PWMGEC. >Color doesn't matter that much! That's all folks!!!-Toni I think I sent this to just Carolyn and not the whole list. But than I could be wrong and now everyone is getting it again- Sorry!!!! ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Tours From: "Matt Cameron" > > > > On Fri, 15 Mar 1996, Matthew Lawrence wrote: > > > > > >& seeing as the tour would be in Britain > > > > > Manic Street Preachers > > > > ........NOOOO....TERRORVISION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Hey, What about Reef? > > > > Matt > > > I've a better idea > One tour for the likes of SG and FNM and then a second tour for purely > British bands: Terrorvision > Manics > Reef > Cast Why stop there? Combine the 2 in the same tour.. Each show would last a whole night.. You could follow it around by train so that you could sleep in the day and mosh in the night.. That would be bliss!! :) Matt ------------------------------ From: James Ingram Subject: This silly "Matt Cameron" mystery... Hey folks... I don't know how anyone could be fooled. There are a couple of things which make it evident that it's fake. 1) it's UK server...why the bloody hell would Matt be on a UK server??? 2) The address is the same as our good friend Matthew Lawrence's. (mattlaw@cogs.susx.ac.uk) This shows up on my screen, with a little note "Reply to: Matt@SG.com"...so some may be decieved by that. *shrug* Ah well, if anyone was in question of this, you shouldn't be now. Mr. Cameron isn't on this mailing list. -- James ------------------------------ From: James Ingram Subject: Re: This silly "Matt Cameron" mystery... > Btw, did that message say anything about Matt Cameron being on the > list? It just said that he liked seth's site. That means almost > nothing. He could have just been feeling down one day, needed an ego > booster, and looked up his band on a search. Well, of course, he > found seth's site. He could have been in awe of how much stuff was > there, and because it made him feel better, her figured he'd give > something back to seth by giving him the info on the new album. Or > maybe i'm whacko. Old well. I do know that if Seth can't prove its > fake, it's probly not fake. -j I dunno. I just assumed that the two were connected. I guess I just haven't been paying attention enough. *shrug* At least I KNOW that I'm whacko. :) --- James ------------------------------ From: el@algonet.se Subject: Spoonman Some time ago I asked for information about Artis and I got some very interesting anwsers(thanx). The last days I've found out a lot about him. He seem to be cool so I'm thinking of seeing him when he is gonna play at the Hultsfredsfestival in Sweden. Yes, I'm not kidding he is gonna preform in my sweet home country 13 to 15 of jun. If you like to get some more info(or have nothing to do) here is the WWW-site. http://www.hultsfredsfestivalen.rockparty.se(hope I got it right) It's gonna be a strong lineup. *** I can read your feelings I'm the Motorman. *** ------------------------------ From: rc@gcc.cc.md.us Subject: yes the shirt again DK>>I think we definetly have to have somms@mit.edu on the shirt. Otherwise DK>>nothing about it will identify with the net/mailing list. It will just be a DK>>bootleg shirt of the e.p somms with a funny fork on the front. DK>I disagree(once again).......don't you think that"POSTING WITH OUR GOOD EYE DK>CLOSED" is just enough to identify the mailing list. If we're goin' to put DK>the whole damn address on, we might as well put all of are names and posting DK>on it!!! Come on, let's keep it simple, mysterious. If people ask what it DK>means, then WE'LL just do the explaining ourselves! DK>Kazam (I'm still for just "SOMMS", damnit.) Yeah, so am I. I don't know why, but I just like it. Kinda like Apple Jacks. Nothingman -But SOMMS doesn't taste like apples. ------------------------------ From: rc@gcc.cc.md.us Subject: um... TO>Not to be elitist or anything, but how come most of these TO>people talking about the shirt design are people whose TO>addresses i don't recognize? what happened to the people that TO>ALWAYS have something to say? Ok, I guess I can think of something to say. ;) I like the fork on the back, with "Posting..." even though it's not my favorite, everybody seems to be agreeing on it. But I think it needs a different color and font than what's on the page. Now the SOMMS thing seems to be the biggest disagreement. I like just plain old SOMMS, even though it is just an EP, it is the name of our list. The address is mearly @mit.edu. It's just a domain name, you know? A nice and simple domain name, compaired to some of the other's I've seen, but a domain. What if the domain were @husky.northern-hs.ga.k12.md.us, would you still want all that on it? It would have to turn into a wrap around. but the domain isn't that. So? It's the same basic thing. (another spacy, weird analogy, by Nothingman) TO>Or am i just an elitist meathead scum? -j You're just an elitest metalead scum(bag?). :) Nothingman -I'm on the end of my rope, but I don't have a rope. ------------------------------ From: rc@gcc.cc.md.us Subject: somms on t-shirt BT>It looks like the biggest sticking point is what form of to have on BT>the t-shirt. should it be or ? We should probably BT>take a vote. I'm willing to tabulate votes for this. If the list is willing BT>to subject the design of the t-shirt to the decision of this vote, I'll BT>count the votes. Details upon support of this idea. BT> - Ben BT>(P.S. despite personal preference, I _will_ be fair. This can be insured by BT>posting the final votes for each with who voted for each. That way, the BT>vote can be held individually accountable) Sounds like a plan. I vote for just SOMMS. The Naked and Cold Nothingman -Those things shrink in cold water. ------------------------------ From: rc@gcc.cc.md.us Subject: Re: T-shirts....what else? :-) CA>Nothingman, I assume that after you have counted up final numbers for CA>t-shirt orders, you will then know a price. And you & Toni will have worked CA>out who will be receiving the money. And you will then post the mailing CA>list to let us all know who we should send the money to (the snail mail CA>address) and how much to send. Am I right? I can find out how much it'll cost as soon as I know what design we DEFINATELY want, and how many shirts we are gonna need. The man was telling me prices per shirt instead of the bulk cost, mainly because I didn't know how many was needed, but the more we get, the less it'll cost. I'll let you know later who'll be receiving the money, but it'll probably be me, because it would make it much, less confusing, and 8bazillion dollars won't be going through the mail in one envelope. Nothingman -Don't forget what you've heard. ------------------------------ From: rc@gcc.cc.md.us Subject: Just putting my two cents in OP>One more thing. Shroom : OP>>> And then I signed off. Comments people? I'd love to OP>hear 'em!! OP>I can't imagine Chris acting like that. That chick sounds like she thinks OP>she's really something and just wishes, or mistook someone else for him. OP> Just cause he was on the guest list doesn't mean it was him. I've heard hi OP>cut down girls who are trying to get into his pants at concerts, and groupie OP>types in general, so I find it really hard to believe he would act like that OP> I would have loved to have been her if it was him though. OP>Gotta go. I'm really glad this list exists. Wow. Chris is gay and marrying Ben, but he's cheating on his wife (Susan) with some girl he doesn't even know in Texas (was that it?), but she didn't really want to be kissed by some big, famous, rich, and not bad looking (for a guy, I'M straight) rock star. So now Chris is a gay, cheating on his wife, Ben marrying, molester of a man. WHAT A GUY! Nothingman -Now I remember why he's my idol. ------------------------------ From: Matt Cameron Subject: It is really me Mail addresses are not that hard to change. Matthew (Cameron). ------------------------------ From: toybox Subject: Re: This silly "Matt Cameron" mystery... > > I don't know how anyone could be fooled. There are a couple of things > which make it evident that it's fake. > 1) it's UK server...why the bloody hell would Matt be on a UK server??? That was the message Matt Lawrence sent to the list, not the message sent to Seth. Seth would've known better. > 2) The address is the same as our good friend Matthew Lawrence's. > (mattlaw@cogs.susx.ac.uk) This shows up on my screen, with a little > note "Reply to: Matt@SG.com"...so some may be decieved by that. *shrug* Yeah, that's because Matt P.L. was playing a Trick. And i thought it was pretty funny. > Ah well, if anyone was in question of this, you shouldn't be now. Mr. > Cameron isn't on this mailing list. Btw, did that message say anything about Matt Cameron being on the list? It just said that he liked seth's site. That means almost nothing. He could have just been feeling down one day, needed an ego booster, and looked up his band on a search. Well, of course, he found seth's site. He could have been in awe of how much stuff was there, and because it made him feel better, her figured he'd give something back to seth by giving him the info on the new album. Or maybe i'm whacko. Old well. I do know that if Seth can't prove its fake, it's probly not fake. -j "Like the coldest winter chill..." ------------------------------ Subject: fake mail and why it doesn't work From: seth Look at the message below. "Mail addresses are not that hard to change." Wrong. The "From:" field is not that hard to change. Look at the headers. This message originated at humboldt.edu and was sent from the sendmail daemon at www.sgi.net. There are only 2 people on the list from Humboldt, and I won't point out who they are... Anyway, this is not an effective way to fake mail. When I got the message from Mr. Cameron the other day, the headers all checked out fine, which is why I can't prove it's fake. So please, people, no more "fake" mail to the list. seth - ------- Forwarded Message Received: from SOUTH-STATION-ANNEX.MIT.EDU by po10.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA11667; Fri, 15 Mar 96 14:37:42 EST Received: from draco.bv.sgi.net by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA24111; Fri, 15 Mar 96 14:36:30 EST Received: from gs151c.humboldt.edu (gs151c.humboldt.edu [137.150.156.24]) by draco.bv.sgi.net (940816.SGI.8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA12800 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 14:37:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199603151937.OAA12800@draco.bv.sgi.net> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 96 11:15:49 -0800 From: Matt Cameron X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: somms@MIT.EDU Subject: It is really me Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mail addresses are not that hard to change. Matthew (Cameron). - ------- End of Forwarded Message ------------------------------ From: ShRooMGrLz@aol.com ameron, do us a favor and tell us what company makes those "90" shirts that Kim and Chris always wear. And if you are feeling gracious enough... care to explain the significance of it? Shroom PS... Since you obviously belong to the mailing list now, you should also send Seth your profile, and a picture so he can post it to the page. Man, but I'm bossy today. One more thing... ahhh... ummm... never mind. ------------------------------ From: He Who Walks Between Subject: Re: It is really me On Fri, 15 Mar 1996, Matt Cameron wrote: > Mail addresses are not that hard to change. > Matthew (Cameron). Great, now we have a Matt Cameron Paul Lawrence AND a Matt (Cameron) Souza. I think they should take the preferences window out of netscape. -j "Damn right, i'm argumentative" -Kim Thayil aka Chicka Jackeen, A Livein Thesu (Per Unkn Own). Boom biddy bye bye! ***************************************************************************** I have a counter @ http://www.unc.edu/~toybox/words.html, please feel free to run it up all you want. Thank you and good night. ------------------------------ Subject: Re: SG DollZ From: tonerkin@usa.pipeline.com (Tonerkin) On Mar 15, 1996 05:27:22, 'Jammie ' wrote: >if there were any SG dolls on the >market, you know, the ones w/ the string that if you pull it they would >say something, what do you think they would say? I see the Kim doll (maybe he could have a pal named Barbie) saying "Damn right I'm argumentive" The Matt doll could be like a tiny tears doll but instead of cry and wet it could spit. The Matt doll would be like one of those wind up little monkey guys that clang cymbals together. And the Chris doll could be an inflatable type. Our very own Shroom would be first in line to buy it!!!- T ------------------------------ From: Vassilis Theoharis Subject: LIVE SOUNDGARDEN Since the subject of "the ideal soundgarden show" has been discussed I decided to state my opinion on this. Although I still love soundgarden, I believe that their most interesting and exciting period has been between 1989-1994. I cannot compare a recent soundgarden show with one after the badmotorfinger masterpiece and I cannot enjoy the show seeing Chris standing still and not falling down and moving clumsily on the stage holding in his arms a fan (like he does in the "Louder Than Live"). Actually, I have never seen soundgarden live but I know a lot about their behaviour on stage, throughout the years. I do not want to sound miserable or annoying but I think soundgarden will never be again (as far as live shows are concerned) as powerful and dynamic as they used to be. If I could see my most prefferred concert, I would turn back the clock and ask for badmotorfinger tour, otherwise something else (let's say monstermagnet or marilyn manson). ------------------------------ From: foreshocks@bbs.cowland.com Subject: hehehe I was just reminiscing :> about one time when I walked into Music Shack, this great record store in Troy, looking through the used cds, and I found this cd by some hip-hop/rap/r&b/i'm not good with the name of this music genre cause I don't listen to it band, I don't remember the name, but the name of the cd was Louder Than Love. Well, you can only imagine the look on the cashier's face as I go bursting off into gales of laughter in the used cd section of the store. I'll have to use one of those cheesey muze computer thingies to find out what the name of the group was. Pretty interesting story though. foreshocks -And I just love that story about the Ultra Mega women's metabolism stuff. ------------------------------ From: URBANO Subject: Shirt Poll deb wrote: > Shall we once again take a poll? I'm working on the script to vote.... In the meanwhile, PLEASE send more designs!! URBANO ______________________________________________________________ The aim of every artist is to arrest motion, which is life, by artificial means and hold it fixed so that a hundred years later, when a stranger looks at it, it moves again since it is life. - William Faulkner ------------------------------ From: Brad Platz Subject: OTHER COOL BANDS LIKE SOUNDGARDEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you like soundgarden you should try checking out KORN, they kick major Ass and another good band is CORROSION OF CONFORMITY. Thier lead singer Pepper Keenan has started another band with PANTERA vocalist Perry Anselmo it's called DOWN. thier new CD is called NOLA. I am not breathing untill the new Soundgarden Album comes out, anyone know what It will be called???? P.S. MINISTRY kicks some major festering hatchet wound also, (pussy)........ Untill next time...... ------------------------------ End of somms Digest [Volume 2 Issue 66] ***************************************